1st lap incidents | ApexOnlineRacing.com

1st lap incidents


Christian Koch

AOR iRacing 2-time Formula Renault 2.0 Champion
Apr 5, 2016
190
342
Guys, thats just terrible in the sprint race! This is no fun, really...not that way"!

Reversed grid IS a good thing for motivation and may be a really good format for broadcasts, but only, if the chance to survive 1st lap IS higher than 90% lets say...

I really want to start a discussion about the penalties of the 1st lap; Only with really harsh penalties for each and every incident involving 2 cars we can potentially provide a good show.

My suggestion is, that the stewards do watch 1st lap of everyone (at least in the sprint race) and speak out really hard penalties for every incident involving 2 cars! Special penalties for the one who starts a "Big One". I'm speaking of things like starting from the pits in the next feature race and even not allowing to start in the next feature race.

The thing is, when everyone is aware of such big penalties for a 1st lap incident, you WILL be way less aggressive. I think that's the only way to keep that format alive!


I'm so pissed right now....
 

Hoff

FR2.0 S4 Pre-Season Sprint Race Winner
Premium Member
Jan 29, 2014
673
623
We need harsh penalties now.

Treat the sprint race separately. You mess up you are back of the grid for it next week. People need to prove they can race at the front. I love the sprint race but I like being able to compete in them more.
 

Kez

iRacing Coordinator
Staff member
iRacing Coordinator
Jan 13, 2014
2,253
1,743
Reverse top 8 only. If you aren't fast enough for the front, you shouldn't be there. That might sound pretty harsh but there's such a huge difference in how people handle traffic around them that this isn't going to change. There's no incentive to improve - remember the old days when some people were in the midfield/lower end and are now front runners in this league? They didn't get a free ticket up the field.

What I saw tonight was disgraceful, and we've given this 13 tries to resolve these problems now.

I'm so angry about tonight, I've never been a part of such a complete and utter mess.
 

Christian Koch

AOR iRacing 2-time Formula Renault 2.0 Champion
Apr 5, 2016
190
342
@Kez
for lap 1 incident in this sprint race, it wouldn't have changed it, because the source of the big one has finished within top 8.
It could make things better with reversing top 8 or 10, but there should also be VERY harsh penalties as well for lap 1 incidents; Otherwise those things won't change too much imo.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Gunar Nijenhuis

Rin Hato

AOR Space Race Champion
Oct 17, 2016
1,167
1,016
You don't need to be 100% attack in the first corner. I just don't understand why people were driving like they were driving. I started on POLE and didn't defend 100% because I didn't need to, and I knew if I kept it clean I would be golden. I guess I don't understand that mindset.
 

WCHpon3

Formula 3 1st Driver
Aug 26, 2015
287
345
in my opinion, this was an incident, nothing more. One driver left their nose down the inside of another and it caused carnage. The track is tight, there is no run off area in tarmac and everyone should be more careful. The top 8 reverse would not have mattered if it was in effect today. And very simply put, why should everyone suffer for one person's mistake? the first time an incident like this happened, we banned someone. reverse grid racing requires drivers who are the quickest to not get greedy, why make the move when you can do it 2 turns later when you force a mistake? it baffles me to try and limit the reverse, i think that people who go for rash moves on lap 1 should be punished for it, have an active stewards team that looks at it, instead of drivers being up in arms about how to protest the incident.
 

Wobbuffet

F1 Senna Equivalent
May 20, 2016
3,775
2,461
As a viewer I've watched pretty much all these sprint races and when you look through the multi car/big lap 1 crashes over the past 13 races, it seems that's half the time its been caused around the middle of the pack.
Reverse top 8 only. If you aren't fast enough for the front, you shouldn't be there. That might sound pretty harsh but there's such a huge difference in how people handle traffic around them that this isn't going to change. There's no incentive to improve - remember the old days when some people were in the midfield/lower end and are now front runners in this league? They didn't get a free ticket up the field.

What I saw tonight was disgraceful, and we've given this 13 tries to resolve these problems now.

I'm so angry about tonight, I've never been a part of such a complete and utter mess.
@Kez It's all well and good trying use those who got inverted to the front as scapegoats, but its the people who also got inverted to the back that are also causing the crashes.

Take tonight's big one for example, it happened between 2 people who originally finished in the top 5 in the feature. (they started 14th and 15th) Your not going to try tell me that they can't handle the traffic around them?:confused: As that would mean they couldn't handle racing around people that finished 2nd, 3rd, 6th & 7th from the feature.

If there's a real villain to blame for all this over the past 13 sprint races, then I would suggest its the race clock believe it not.

For the faster drivers who end up in the midfield or back, from the moment the sprint race starts it becomes a race against time and they know they have to make hay as quickly as possible, as there a lot less laps and no pit stops/strategy to jump others, and in there urgency to get to the front its impatience that is a factor in causing these big wrecks and crashes to happen.

And with the other incidents later in the race it wouldn't surprise me in a way if some of the faster drivers are not prepared to give the slower drivers ahead the respect and space they deserve, potentially thinking they should either simply move out of their way and let them by or not battle them at all.

Though on other occasions it seemed to be simple case of people sadly being in the wrong place at the wrong time, like Kez for example - when Alain lost it at the final turn and turned into him, not Alain's fault or Kez's just bad luck, you can't blame others for that.

My irrelevant opinion for what its worth, I agree with Christian and Hoff I think you now need severe penalties in place to basically put the fear of god into people for the opening laps, as currently the deterrent is not there if there is a big pile up, at the moment it seems there's not enough 'give' and far too much 'take' going on in the start of these sprint races.

Lastly I know rolling starts had been mentioned in the past, maybe you might want to consider looking into a single file rolling start.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rin Hato

Hoff

FR2.0 S4 Pre-Season Sprint Race Winner
Premium Member
Jan 29, 2014
673
623
Another idea I think would be decent is to have the sprint race consist of 1 lap qualy. Takes the shine away what should be a brilliant opportunity for the slower chaps like myself but I would rather start finishing these races than praying that I am going to end up not being able to avoid a car that's spinning in front of me.

Also Jake, you have been here for one race, when you have been taken out 5-6 times in these races when there's nothing you could have done to avoid it, then come back. You will soon get sick of practicing all week to then be rewarded with idiocy in one of the races you've put in the time to get only half decent at compared to others in this league.

Punishments needs to start. If you can't roll safely at the front then you shouldn't be there. Everyone is great in this league, full of nice chaps but as @Kez has said, they must turn into idiots behind the wheel.
 
Last edited:

Kez

iRacing Coordinator
Staff member
iRacing Coordinator
Jan 13, 2014
2,253
1,743
After sleeping on it, my idea above about a shorter inversion probably isn't for the best. I still just don't like the gimmick of the reverse but understand why it's good for the league. There's potentially 7 or 8 drivers who could win races in the feature but it doesn't mean anything in the Championship contest if they don't have the 'luck' to avoid lap 1 in the sprint. I'm starting to lose count of the amount of races I've been taken out of now.

The only alternative we seem to have is to just come down harshly. I remember the glory days of the Forza leagues where if you caused an incident, regardless of how 'minor', you're at the back for the next one. Seemed to keep people in line. And it would certainly be easier work for the stewards.

Or maybe a x4 incident limit lol, I want to see a trial race run with that.
 

Leister-Meister

GP2 Test Driver
Dec 8, 2014
311
475
Reducing the reversed grid would not solve anything.

Either bin the reversed grid or penalize.

The major one yesterday was caused in the back of the field - meaning rather quick drivers haven been involved. And even more quicker drivers who were even further behind rushed eyes opened into the debris. Was interesting to watch....
 

Lorrentz

Premium Member
Premium Member
Jan 13, 2014
3,159
1,700
of all the ideas i think there are only 2 possibilities which should "fix" the sprintraces...

1. A 1 lap qualify shootout in stead of reversing the feature like @Hoff said

Or

2. Let the stewards review the lap 1 incidents in the sprintrace and place the 1 who causes the mess at the back of the next sprintrace (or pitlane start even)
 

Steve Kagerer

Formula 3 Test Driver
Jan 4, 2015
189
247
Clearly this is all the fault of Martinhuis!

I agree with harsher penalties, no more 3 strikes then a small penalty. Repeat offenders should maybe skip a race or 2 to practice.
 

Hoff

FR2.0 S4 Pre-Season Sprint Race Winner
Premium Member
Jan 29, 2014
673
623
The only alternative we seem to have is to just come down harshly. I remember the glory days of the Forza leagues where if you caused an incident, regardless of how 'minor', you're at the back for the next one. Seemed to keep people in line. And it would certainly be easier work for the stewards.
 

Christian Koch

AOR iRacing 2-time Formula Renault 2.0 Champion
Apr 5, 2016
190
342
adding to that, i think a 1 lap qualifying for sprint race is not the way to go; nothing gained there as you could start with feature race finishing positions or even reverse top 8 or 10; it's nearly the same, except it costs another 10 minutes of the evening.

I've still the opinion to speak out harsh penalties as the only way in order to be able to keep the format.
People already get frustrated, which is not good for the league; Looking at the feature race and the number of drivers within 1 second after qualifying, we've got everything for a great league and big fun! The potential is there, but the actual format of the sprint race kills that completely and makes the fight in the championship quite a lottery, which again is frustrating for everyone.

It is quite clear, that we have to change something, don't you think?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Gunar Nijenhuis

Rin Hato

AOR Space Race Champion
Oct 17, 2016
1,167
1,016
Put harsher penalties in, and proactive investigation by stewards. It's not slow drivers causing wrecks, it's not fast drivers, it's impatient ones. The pack is tighter than the feature and people are making moves as soon as the lights go green, causing incidents, pileups, other people losing focus from spinning cars and making mistakes etc. Everyone in this league knows how to drive, and the feature races prove that, so why do people lose their minds in the sprint? I don't get it.
 

Gunar Nijenhuis

F1 1st Driver
Sep 2, 2015
615
827
Yep completely agree with harsh penalties for the "big one" but also all other crap drive actions on the first few laps when it's all still packed together.

I know it's a lot of work for the stewards to go over every incident and I will even volunteer to help with this, if needed. @McPhilen @FisiFan91
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hoff and BenScott4

Erkka Lindstrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Dec 8, 2014
222
190
Well, sprint race was a mess but i think just give harder penalties for causing crash. Reversed grid is a exciting and fun to watch so i hope there will not be any big changes of that format.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rin Hato

BenScott4

Pro Karter
Feb 8, 2017
28
58
I wasn't going to get involved in these arguments with being new to the league again but what the hell, here i am.

I took part a few seasons ago before the reverse grid was introduced and was slower than i am now ( yes i know, its hard to believe ) and a lot more erratic than i am now. I had only taken part in a few races and most almost or was involved in an incident with someone else. This was a major reason not to hurry back into the league when the PC went to the bin. Before i applied for the league or even before i joined in the race night i felt i was safe and as fast as possible around others. Surely if people are not safe enough ( including myself if anyone has any criticism ) then should they participating in the races?

I also think that we could be giving advice more to others if we feel someone has made a mistake rather than wait until its too late and try and prevent it from happening again in the future. I know its added pressure with everyone being together on the first lap so there is more chance of incidents but i know that if i am not safe around others it wouldn't matter if i started 1st or last in either race, when someone gets close to me they are going to worry? So why look to change the rules to stop it, improving the drivers would be the first step to me?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Erkka Lindstrom

Jarnoh

Formula 3 Test Driver
May 13, 2015
195
95
After sleeping on it, my idea above about a shorter inversion probably isn't for the best. I still just don't like the gimmick of the reverse but understand why it's good for the league. There's potentially 7 or 8 drivers who could win races in the feature but it doesn't mean anything in the Championship contest if they don't have the 'luck' to avoid lap 1 in the sprint. I'm starting to lose count of the amount of races I've been taken out of now.

The only alternative we seem to have is to just come down harshly. I remember the glory days of the Forza leagues where if you caused an incident, regardless of how 'minor', you're at the back for the next one. Seemed to keep people in line. And it would certainly be easier work for the stewards.

Or maybe a x4 incident limit lol, I want to see a trial race run with that.
I'm sorry but i totally disagree. In this way you should just start with 10 drivers and don't let the rest race. It takes the fun away from a lot of drivers. If a fast driver can't manouvre his way from back of the grid towards the front, he is the one that should look at his own driving skills. Just expecting the guy in front to brake earlier than you shouldn't be too hard. I didn't see the race since several reasons but the one way is: PENALTIES. No offense @Kez, you are an amazing driver and i see that you don't have luck on your side all the time but top 8 reverse is not the way to do this.