2x Tire Wear Concerns | ApexOnlineRacing.com

2x Tire Wear Concerns


t0daY

Reigning AOR PC Formula Renault 3.5 Champion
Premium Member
Apr 7, 2016
353
508
Hello everybody :)

As I mentioned it already earlier I am quite unhappy with x2 tire wear for season 5. In my opinion it won't bring more variety to the season, more the opposite. The hard and medium compounds are far from competitive which means we will see mostly 1-stopper with two soft stints.

A really good friend of mine (Hello "miagi" at this point :p) did some really good testing at Bathurst with the Bentley GT3. He compared the softs, mediums and hards against each other. The test was all about the tire wear, if the mediums and/or hards are worth driving or not. I came to similiar conclusions but he wrote it down in a proper way.

If you got some time you might take a look and read what he tested: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27185-TYRE-PHYSICS-DISCUSSION&p=1226691&viewfull=1#post1226691

I really hope we can go back to tire wear x1 because it showed in season 4 that it was already really tactical. Some did a no-stopper and lost couple seconds race pace in the end. Others pitted half of the race, got some new tires and pushed till the end. In my opinion that was already super amazing and full of strategy! :)

@FisiFan91 @Yorkie065 @StevieSQ @Erti147 @Gxbbs
 
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Erti147

AOR Admin
Staff member
AOR Admin
Jan 14, 2014
7,408
5,307
Run 2 stints on the soft tyres if you want, nobody said it was mandatory to pit for mediums/hards
 

t0daY

Reigning AOR PC Formula Renault 3.5 Champion
Premium Member
Apr 7, 2016
353
508
Run 2 stints on the soft tyres if you want, nobody said it was mandatory to pit for mediums/hards
But that was the main reason for x2 tire wear, to get more variety of tires and strategies. And it won't bring us that.. Papand had the concerns aswell, it just feels like it was not really tested because the result with x2 tire wear won't bring any variety...

2x tire wear does not fit with that sentence: "Tyre wear has been increased to x2 in an attempt to make strategy more important with a variety of compounds to select."
 
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Browneskiii

Slowest GT3 Champion Ever
Premium Member
Nov 24, 2014
1,145
1,096
The way I see it is this:

The only way it'll be a boring 1 stop is if the race on real tyre wear would be a boring 0 stop.
The way that we'll be doing a 1 stop on 2x is if the tyres would get to the end on real, if it's a struggle at the end of stints then it'll happen twice and you'll lose twice as much time as people who are stopping an extra time.

Pit stops take roughly 30-40 seconds depending on the track, and if you two stop, then you have to gain 30-40 seconds over two stints (about a second a lap if its about 30 laps), while if you did that on a boring zero stop compared to a one stop you would have to gain the same amount over half a race distance.

Take Catalunya for example: Say the tyres last 15 laps out of 36. (or whatever it is). You can choose to pit 3 laps early, and start gaining at about 2 seconds a lap for 6 laps because the other driver who is 1 stopping and pitting on 18 or so. He'll then probably gain about half a second a lap for the next few laps and then when you pit again you'll gain a huge amount of time in the last few laps to a gap which was already reduced from the last stint. Last season if the 0 stop worked, there was absolutely no chance of a 1 stopper with the same pace catching you.

So
Driver A - 12 laps - 12 laps - 12 laps
Driver B - 18 laps - 18 laps

Lets say they're of equal pace, driver A will probably gain a few tenths a lap at the start because he'll be able to push as hard as he likes, while driver B is going to save his tyres and do one less stop. Lets say 2 tenths for the sake of arguments. (-6 seconds over 12 laps)

The next 6 laps while driver B is still managing tyres, you will gain 2 seconds a lap easy. (-18 seconds after 18). Then Driver B will start catching at about 0.5 for 6 laps until you pit (-15 seconds after 24) and then you have 12 laps to gain 15 seconds, and if driver B caught up at 0.5 a lap with 6 laps fresher tyres, you will do until his drops off the cliff at the end where you will gain more, and from there you don't know who will come out infront.

If that was last season, the driver who managed his tyres would easily have won, but now there's a chance that drivers who do more stops will catch up by the end.

The only times when x2 will be boring races is when real would be boring races.
 

Papand

F1 Test Driver
Jul 17, 2015
440
920
From what i have seen in PRL this season running with x2 tirewear is that the BMW Z4 can do a 1 stopper without any drop in laptimes. The RUF can do some tracks without issues, but with others its a loss of about 2 secs per lap in the end of each stint. I would expect this to be even worse with cars having higher tire wear in general. PRL races last around 50 mins, so in AOR the issue will hit even harder.

This means the Z4 will be the car to pick this season - as this is the only car being able to do 1 stop without issues. Doing 2 stops will always be too slow, so the rest of the field will need to do laps by the end of each stint with serious drop in laptimes.

As @t0daY states above, picking medium or hard is also out of the question.

I liked the way it worked last season. The Z4 could use its tire advantage to 0 stop, but it would require some serious tire management to pull off. On the tracks with low tire wear, the rest of the cars could do it aswell, but yet again tire management would be important. With 2x wear i think we remove that tactical aspect and play everything in the hands of a Z4 choice.
 

TonyR

Formula 4 2nd Driver
Nov 4, 2015
123
254
I think there is a problem in logic guys.

x2 tire wear amplifies what we had in last season. So cars with good wear like the Z4 will be given a bigger advantage and cars like the Bentley that have bad wear will be given a bigger disadvantage.

Considering the races in last season were very close in absolute race times* between 0 stops and 1 stops that will only mean that you have to choose a car that can do the race on 1 stop for the upcoming season or you just lose too much time. And you will lose that time in a very boring manner, with pit stops.

*I remember the Laguna Seca race where I had exactly the same pace as DyndaS. I did a 0 stop in the Aston and he had a 1 stop in the Bentley. I was 1 sec behind him when he pitted and 1 lap before the end he was 3 sec behind me, can't get closer than that.
 

Erti147

AOR Admin
Staff member
AOR Admin
Jan 14, 2014
7,408
5,307
Thanks for writing something that is clear there @TonyR

I had a bunch of people in TS enthusiastic about x2 tw one night but that seems to have gone out of the window. If this was to changed back to x1 then it would have to be across all platforms, as we already have a bunch of different rules for the PC side lol
 

t0daY

Reigning AOR PC Formula Renault 3.5 Champion
Premium Member
Apr 7, 2016
353
508
I think there is a problem in logic guys.

x2 tire wear amplifies what we had in last season. So cars with good wear like the Z4 will be given a bigger advantage and cars like the Bentley that have bad wear will be given a bigger disadvantage.

Considering the races in last season were very close in absolute race times* between 0 stops and 1 stops that will only mean that you have to choose a car that can do the race on 1 stop for the upcoming season or you just lose too much time. And you will lose that time in a very boring manner, with pit stops.

*I remember the Laguna Seca race where I had exactly the same pace as DyndaS. I did a 0 stop in the Aston and he had a 1 stop in the Bentley. I was 1 sec behind him when he pitted and 1 lap before the end he was 3 sec behind me, can't get closer than that.[/QUOTE
Thanks for writing something that is clear there @TonyR

I had a bunch of people in TS enthusiastic about x2 tw one night but that seems to have gone out of the window. If this was to changed back to x1 then it would have to be across all platforms, as we already have a bunch of different rules for the PC side lol
Was I so unclear? :D :D :D

About the "change back". This problem is across all platforms, PS4 guys will run into the same problems as the PC guys. I do not think TonyR or I would not race if it would stay x2 but it is clearly something which will be more contra-productive than productive. Papand was also right, cars like the Z4 can easily do a 1-stopper with softs and cars like the Aston (which is a tire eater) will probably need 2 stops regardless how carefully you drive.

And Mediums and Hards are out of question, so it would be just unbalanced... Or we see only Z4s in the league, might be also possible :D GT3 Z4 Elite League xDD
 

Browneskiii

Slowest GT3 Champion Ever
Premium Member
Nov 24, 2014
1,145
1,096
No, the Z4 won't be able to easily do a 1 stop race.. Sure, it's got the best tyre wear of the lot, but it's not all that different to the rest.
Look at the tyres at the end of my Watkins Glen race last season and that's when I pitted on lap 5 or 6.. And in Brno I had to run mediums on the front.

I'm arguably one of the best at preserving tyres in the league and I wasn't able to 0 stop every race last season, so why are you all saying the Z4 will easily be able to? Considering we have to race **** tracks (for the car) like Bathurst, Monza and Nordschleife where the Z4 will be miles off the pace, I don't see why everyone would pick it. I think the Z4 will be advantaged more at Real tyre wear than at x2.
 

t0daY

Reigning AOR PC Formula Renault 3.5 Champion
Premium Member
Apr 7, 2016
353
508
No, the Z4 won't be able to easily do a 1 stop race.. Sure, it's got the best tyre wear of the lot, but it's not all that different to the rest.
Look at the tyres at the end of my Watkins Glen race last season and that's when I pitted on lap 5 or 6.. And in Brno I had to run mediums on the front.

I'm arguably one of the best at preserving tyres in the league and I wasn't able to 0 stop every race last season, so why are you all saying the Z4 will easily be able to? Considering we have to race **** tracks (for the car) like Bathurst, Monza and Nordschleife where the Z4 will be miles off the pace, I don't see why everyone would pick it. I think the Z4 will be advantaged more at Real tyre wear than at x2.
Papand is already in a season where they do 2x tire wear and they encounter this "issue" with 2x tire wear. Why not believing guys who are already in a season with that twist or people who did a excessive testing for it?

And 3 out of 12 tracks are not "good" for the Z4. Thats an argument xD Aston has such a tire wear, probably need every race 2 pit stops to be able to do the same pace. And I personally think that the Z4 will have a huge advantage towards other cars with 2x tire wear.
 

Browneskiii

Slowest GT3 Champion Ever
Premium Member
Nov 24, 2014
1,145
1,096
Papand is already in a season where they do 2x tire wear and they encounter this "issue" with 2x tire wear. Why not believing guys who are already in a season with that twist or people who did a excessive testing for it?

And 3 out of 12 tracks are not "good" for the Z4. Thats an argument xD Aston has such a tire wear, probably need every race 2 pit stops to be able to do the same pace. And I personally think that the Z4 will have a huge advantage towards other cars with 2x tire wear.
He also said that it was over 50 minute races and not in excess of an hour. There's quite a difference in the last ten minutes of the race.
If the races were 5 laps shorter, I would agree that the Z4 would easily do every race with 1 stopping this season, but there will be races where 2 stopping will be the quicker option.

Why would there be a difference in who has the advantage in real tyre wear and 2x anyway? Like I said in an earlier post, in real tyre wear, the ones doing an extra stop have half a race to catch up while on 2x you have 2/3rds of the race to catch up an extra stop.

Plus the Aston isn't as bad as you think, Tony did plenty of 0 stop races last season, and he's a very aggressive driver. I know you guys don't like me much and are probably trying to get me disadvantaged as much as possible with these changes as form shows I've done best with the Z4 over the seasons, but to take a different league who does shorter races as your main argument is just a bit silly.
 

t0daY

Reigning AOR PC Formula Renault 3.5 Champion
Premium Member
Apr 7, 2016
353
508
He also said that it was over 50 minute races and not in excess of an hour. There's quite a difference in the last ten minutes of the race.
If the races were 5 laps shorter, I would agree that the Z4 would easily do every race with 1 stopping this season, but there will be races where 2 stopping will be the quicker option.

Why would there be a difference in who has the advantage in real tyre wear and 2x anyway? Like I said in an earlier post, in real tyre wear, the ones doing an extra stop have half a race to catch up while on 2x you have 2/3rds of the race to catch up an extra stop.

Plus the Aston isn't as bad as you think, Tony did plenty of 0 stop races last season, and he's a very aggressive driver. I know you guys don't like me much and are probably trying to get me disadvantaged as much as possible with these changes as form shows I've done best with the Z4 over the seasons, but to take a different league who does shorter races as your main argument is just a bit silly.
I like you <3 And I consider to take the Z4 aswell so I would shoot myself :D :D
 

Lanius1984

GP2 2nd Driver
Jun 20, 2016
402
360
Thanks for writing something that is clear there @TonyR

I had a bunch of people in TS enthusiastic about x2 tw one night but that seems to have gone out of the window. If this was to changed back to x1 then it would have to be across all platforms, as we already have a bunch of different rules for the PC side lol
I can't see anyone from the consoles kicking up a fuss if this were to be changed back. I'm signed to the PS4 league, and would happily take the better advice being offered here if it results in better races, particularly with a more varied grid of cars.
 

Papand

F1 Test Driver
Jul 17, 2015
440
920
He also said that it was over 50 minute races and not in excess of an hour. There's quite a difference in the last ten minutes of the race.
If the races were 5 laps shorter, I would agree that the Z4 would easily do every race with 1 stopping this season, but there will be races where 2 stopping will be the quicker option.

Why would there be a difference in who has the advantage in real tyre wear and 2x anyway? Like I said in an earlier post, in real tyre wear, the ones doing an extra stop have half a race to catch up while on 2x you have 2/3rds of the race to catch up an extra stop.

Plus the Aston isn't as bad as you think, Tony did plenty of 0 stop races last season, and he's a very aggressive driver. I know you guys don't like me much and are probably trying to get me disadvantaged as much as possible with these changes as form shows I've done best with the Z4 over the seasons, but to take a different league who does shorter races as your main argument is just a bit silly.
No need to disadvantage you @Browneskiii . Im trying to avoid a grid filled with Z4's. :)

Before racing in PRL i would also have asked for 2x tirewear as i expected more strategy options to open. But after trying it i fully agree with this:
x2 tire wear amplifies what we had in last season.
I raced Zhuhai, Nurburgring, Sonoma and Brno in PRL.
The Z4 can 1 stop on 50 mins without issues. 2-3 laps more in each stint ( to reach 1 hour ) would not make any difference. The Z4 can make it without or with very little drop in pace.

With the RUF i was skating on ice at Zhuhai, Sonoma and Brno for 2-4 laps in the end of each stint. Brno was the worst. Adding 2-3 laps would send the RUF over the cliff and most likely force a 2nd stop. This would add 30-40 secs to my race time due to pitting.

After trying the Z4 in the time trial i got it high on my list for next season. But with 2x tirewear i think its the only valid choice.
 

KrypticTMG

F1 2nd Driver
Apr 4, 2015
572
839
I race on the PS4 and I agree that you would probably only see a grid full of BMW Z4's if tyre wear is on x2 as most people want to give themselves the best chance of a good result. The only thing in my opinion that could work on x2 tyre wear is to force everyone to pit twice so cars that damage the tyres more will still have a chance and you may get greater car variation.
 

SVK_Duchi

Formula 3 2nd Driver
Oct 30, 2015
257
160
Its a shame that we cant see diferent Skin on tyres. Example:force racers to use soft let say yelow marked tyres and medium let say White marked tyres and you have strategy build in that. If he drives with medium tyres long stint or short stint. Its drivers choice. Thats my opinion.
 

Viceguy

F1 Senna Equivalent
Jan 15, 2014
2,029
1,150
Its a shame that we cant see diferent Skin on tyres. Example:force racers to use soft let say yelow marked tyres and medium let say White marked tyres and you have strategy build in that. If he drives with medium tyres long stint or short stint. Its drivers choice. Thats my opinion.
but even if it was possible to force drivers over on mediums or even hards it wouldnt be a gain for the racing of the league as the tyres simply arent viable compared to the softs...

the problem is that the mediums might be slower per lap, but they dont give enough extra time on track compared to softs to use them if you arent as fast a driver... fx. me... even if i used hards i would lose so much time pr. lap that i would have been better off just going on softs and pitting twice
 
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Reactions: t0daY and SVK_Duchi

Yuriznikov

Formula 4 2nd Driver
May 2, 2016
131
102
I tried a 50% race distance on Catalunya today in the exact same circumstances as the first upcoming race and noticed it is going to be hard to still be one stopping. I personally do not know how big of a difference the Tyre wear makes between the Z4 and the other cars as i haven't driven the Z4 enough. but i also think it'd be sad to see a grid dominated by one type of car mostly.

I wonder if the Z4 is really that 'overpowered' with Tyre wear? I for one won't be driving it but i would hate to see a grid of mostly the same car, guess its down to us drivers to balance it out. The fact that you only have to make one stop won't always mean the best result i guess..
 

t0daY

Reigning AOR PC Formula Renault 3.5 Champion
Premium Member
Apr 7, 2016
353
508
I tried a 50% race distance on Catalunya today in the exact same circumstances as the first upcoming race and noticed it is going to be hard to still be one stopping. I personally do not know how big of a difference the Tyre wear makes between the Z4 and the other cars as i haven't driven the Z4 enough. but i also think it'd be sad to see a grid dominated by one type of car mostly.

I wonder if the Z4 is really that 'overpowered' with Tyre wear? I for one won't be driving it but i would hate to see a grid of mostly the same car, guess its down to us drivers to balance it out. The fact that you only have to make one stop won't always mean the best result i guess..
Put Stability Control an and try again. Z4 is a tire safer for sure