Important Notice On Track Limits | ApexOnlineRacing.com

Important Notice On Track Limits


rciq

Formula Karter
Dec 21, 2017
66
55
As soon as you go down that route, you open the door for "This extension on needs to be allowed, you did it for the Red bull ring" over and over and over again. You also make the stewards job harder, not easier, by adding more things to remember ( is this extend allowed or not ). It's far easier to govern properly to have 1 set of rules for all tracks, and it's not like you can't see where the lines are
Maybe. I just don't see an outweighing benefit of all the work they (the stewards and race directors) are putting into this. Particularily at RedBull where 4 out of 8 corners can be driven explicitly wide without penalty. You have 30 cars to watch for 40 laps, in 4 tiers, on 3 platforms. Imagine the total effort needed to sheriff all that in real-time. Plus processing all the complaints after.

Contrary to what you're saying, going 100% with game rules would be by far the easiest way. Especially when the inbuilt penalty system now in 4.0 is really good ("near enough identical to our ruling").

Anyway it's too late to change this for GT3 S9. Just offering an alternative perspective for future.
 

N1kmido

F1 Senna Equivalent
Sep 17, 2016
912
906
It´s not the stewards job to watch every race on every platform. It´s job of the drivers to report if they notice someone breaking the rules. Stewards are there to decide about the penalty if an enquiry has been raised.
 

rciq

Formula Karter
Dec 21, 2017
66
55
It´s not the stewards job to watch every race on every platform. It´s job of the drivers to report if they notice someone breaking the rules. Stewards are there to decide about the penalty if an enquiry has been raised.
I'm directly relating to the evaluation races here. The race directors were policing track limits and giving slowdown penalties in real time. I was under the impression that the same is going to be taking place in league races, but maybe not;)
 

King-kodiak

AOR Head Commentator
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I'm directly relating to the evaluation races here. The race directors were policing track limits and giving slowdown penalties in real time. I was under the impression that the same is going to be taking place in league races, but maybe not;)
No, no live stewarding in that way. If there were, them absolutely your ideas would be great. Because the stewards have to react to so many leagues and tiers as you pointed out, that's why we need consistent rules applied across the board, and changing the rules in 1 track means they can be changed in so many ways, it would make a rewarding much more difficult.
 

Michel--NL

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I'm directly relating to the evaluation races here. The race directors were policing track limits and giving slowdown penalties in real time.
Are you sure it was the directors and not the game itself? I can't imagine it was a race director.
 

Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
512
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I have a question regarding this topic: https://apexonlineracing.com/community/threads/tc-s1-elite-round-3-race-1-penalties-removal.34921/#post-581102
The answer to the enquiry was
We don't see enough effort made by the driver to remove the penalties. Lifting for a second is not enough.
I honestly don't understand this answer. Should we lose 10 sec to have lifted enough ??? No point lifting then, we should just take the ingame penalty.

@Adalexis
Second 1: Cut
Second 2/5 1st lift
Second 25/30 2nd lift and also lost a position doing that. Still, penalty.
In this example, from 2s in the video, he lift between 2 and 3 sec. That's a lot time lost, surely more than gained.
AND, after the corner, he lift again, even letting a car pass !!! How is that not enough for one cut seriously ?
"Lifting for a second is not enough" => He lifted for at least 2 sec + Lifted again and let a car pass !

I am one who agrees to be strict about track limit, as some may already know, but here I really can't understand.
And, it's not a personal request, I don't know much Adalexis.

If the answer would have been "we don't remove ingame penalty unless you were forced to cut to avoid an incident", I would understand.
But I can't see how not "enough effort made by the driver to remove the penalties" ??
 

Adalexis

Formula 4 1st Driver
Feb 3, 2018
176
128
I don't like it so much, and i don't understand it clearly.
Made a new video. To see current loss of time ( and positions ) @Marvin @Yorkie065
I don't want to be polemic, but only, trying to better understand rules and stewarts choices.

!IMPORTANT!
Game system is permissive, but, dunno why, at hockeneim was the inverse. U had to lose like 4 seconds for a 1 tenth cut in final turn and turn1.

RULES:
2- You have made a significantly clear attempt to clear the warning, that is clearly far greater than the time you would have gained, yet it is still not clearing (i.e. you've been trying to give up time for multiple seconds). In this case, evidence would need to be provided in order for the stewards to remove the time penalty post race, and to which it would be down to the stewards discretion as to whether the penalty will be removed or will still stand.

New Video. ( With timings )


Let's check distance with @Tudesertpac

At finish line i was + 0.850 on him.
Then i cut, goin +0.920, less than 1 tenth gain
First lift, Tudesertpac reached me at +0.350 ( But i've lost more, 1 second over the leader or more ) Tuderertpac slowed down, he couldn't attack me in that corner.
Second lift, i let even Tudesertpac to pass me, and he give me +400 over me.
In total, i've lost like 2 seconds, and a position, for a 1 tenth cut.
Then, came the penalty, so in fact, i've lost 4 seconds, for a 1 tenth cut.

At this point, if these are the rules, in this track ( with wicked cut calculation ) for me was reeeeeally better not to lift at all. Basically, with like 4 seconds of lifting less, even with penalties, i could finished like 4th, or 5th.
And well, i don't like it, because i cutted a lot in past ( even a DSQ ) and i put all my efforts to never happen this again.
 

DaWu

AOR PC GT3 Semi-Pro S8 Champion
May 22, 2017
715
474
if you do lift you can let the time penalty get removed.
But if you cut you should get a punishment like time penalty or a lift.

And yeah let the time penalty get removed by the stewards takes time and may be anoying...
But if you dont cut you dont need to get the penalty removed...

Talking about "how much" some one lost and how much time was gained cutting is irrelevant ^^
In real racing you would get a Stop and go or drive through penalty after 3-4 Cuts/extends where they are not allowed.
That would lose you way more time as the 1 sec you lose for the lift (or 3-4 secs for all the lifts).

So you may lose a postiton after a big cut, but thats a normal punishment for driving against the rules.
 

Adalexis

Formula 4 1st Driver
Feb 3, 2018
176
128
Talking about "how much" some one lost and how much time was gained cutting is irrelevant ^^
I don't think so, and is even in the rules.

2- You have made a significantly clear attempt to clear the warning, that is clearly far greater than the time you would have gained, yet it is still not clearing (i.e. you've been trying to give up time for multiple seconds). In this case, evidence would need to be provided in order for the stewards to remove the time penalty post race, and to which it would be down to the stewards discretion as to whether the penalty will be removed or will still stand.

So, definitely not, if i cut a chincane straight, or put a wheel off the track, is not the same story at all. ( And thanks god, would be mad and nazi )

What i am finding to say is:
I trashed my race, lifting so much, losing positions, and then have penalities the same..
when i could go full speed, take those penalties without any lift and then gain 2 positions in final placement.
If that is cool, that's ok, but i think is not.
No problem with stewarts, is the game system that is not consistent at all.
Sometimes is too permissive, sometimes is good, sometimes like on hockheneim is race breaking.
The problem is, we stick to cool human rules about 2 wheels off the track? ok, and legit, so don't use game system at all.
Using game system only when is harsher and randomish is not that good for me.
 

Tudesertpac

Formula 4 1st Driver
Feb 3, 2018
176
143
Sorry but that was absolutely nonsense what you wrote there @DaWu
I think the punishment against adalexis is not justified imo. This penalty system is way too unreliable and unpredictable. You can cut worth of 1 sec and the penalty warning will vanish even if you don’t lift whereas you get a 2 sec penalty for a small cut and lifting @Adalexis
 
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King-kodiak

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2- You have made a significantly clear attempt to clear the warning, that is clearly far greater than the time you would have gained, yet it is still not clearing (i.e. you've been trying to give up time for multiple seconds). In this case, evidence would need to be provided in order for the stewards to remove the time penalty post race, and to which it would be down to the stewards discretion as to whether the penalty will be removed or will still stand.

In this instance, the stewards felt you had not lifted anywhere near enough to remove the penalty. Losing positions doesn't make the penalty cancel any quicker, and the longer you leave it before you get off the gas, the longer it takes to clear. You may feel that the system is flawed and unfair, but everyone has to abide by them as they are used in all AOR leagues. The quicker you get off the racing line and get the penalty canceled, the quicker you can get back into the race

At this point, if these are the rules, in this track ( with wicked cut calculation ) for me was reeeeeally better not to lift at all. Basically, with like 4 seconds of lifting less, even with penalties, i could finished like 4th, or 5th.
And well, i don't like it, because i cutted a lot in past ( even a DSQ ) and i put all my efforts to never happen this again.
You want to risk having multiple corner cut penalties being applied every race? They wont always be the same value if the game thinks you are cutting by greater amounts each lap, and flies in the face of "clean racing", don't you think? You would risk a far greater sanction if you are seen as a regular corner cutter "Because you didn't think the system was fair", and as far as I recall, you were pretty damn quick in S9 GT3 Elite without getting too many penalties, so you can't say its not possible.

I am not saying the system is perfect, we all know its not. There will always be times when a driver is hit with a penalty feels its unfair. There are MANY more drivers then there are stewards, so we have to have a system that is equally applicable to all drivers across all leagues across all tiers. Thats not to say that you shouldn't raise an enquiry if you feel its unfair, but there will be times when the stewards don't agree with you (there are many times the stewards don't agree with each other, let alone the person that raised the enquiry, but a majority vote is what is applied to those cases)
 

Adalexis

Formula 4 1st Driver
Feb 3, 2018
176
128
Yep, in fact, i don't want to continue cutting, and be fair as much as i can.
I'm only little sad about what happened.
The first thing i thought when the game gave that penalty after that lift ( 2 seconds guys ) was "Well, game is wicked in this track, i'm sure stewarts will help me about that"

Is true, if you slow down immediately after the cut, chances are better for warning disappearing. This is not always possible for safety reasons. ( like slow down and go sideways, or slow down only in straights to do no put people in danger )

Rules are the same for everyone and that's true. So much drivers saw the video and thought was not really fair.
Bad luck, Tc cars and drivers are like all in the same pace ( under a second of gap ) so basically lift off and took penalities anyway destroyed my race a bit.
 

DaWu

AOR PC GT3 Semi-Pro S8 Champion
May 22, 2017
715
474
@Adalexis @Tudesertpac its simple... just dont cut and nothing will happend.
And IF you cut by accident, lift and then go on. If the penalty isnt going away but you can show that you lifted, the stewards may clear that penaltys for you.
You dont need to lift for like 4 secs or what ever your situation was...

AOR rules are the white lines... the games rules are quiet the same and even lower on some tracks and corners, so you can push more and wider with the ingame system.
So if the "slow down" penalty comes up you were beyond AOR rules and you have to lift.

Why is there a need to talk about "i only gained (..) that ammount of time" ?
If you cheat in a test at school (even tho its just a small look at your neighbour's test...) you may get a 6(F).
Why do allow "cheating" in any way and/or duskuss about it?

You just need to prepare to not cheat and if you do, take the punishment.

This ongoing talking about tracklimits is just kinda worthless tbh.

The Game is not perfect, AOR rules are not perfect, the world is unfair...
But we still just have to deal with it like it is or create something on your own what is better.
 

Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
512
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Why is there a need to talk about "i only gained (..) that ammount of time" ?
If you cheat in a test at school (even tho its just a small look at your neighbour's test...) you may get a 6(F).
Why do allow "cheating" in any way and/or duskuss about it?
It's not about discussing to allow cheating (corner cutting), but discussing about the proper penalty.
You are not fired from the school if you cheat once in a test at school right ? But maybe if you cheat plenty of time, you'll get fired? The punishment depends on the gravity/occurrences of the cheats.
So yeah, that's why we can discuss on the time gained compared to the penalty.
What I don't understand is : I already saw enquiries where someone got a 5sec penalty for a little cut by the game, and stewards reduced it to 1 or 2 sec, even though the driver didn't lift.
Here, @Adalexis lost 4 sec total for the little cut, and stewards decided not to reduce the penalty. This seems quite inconsistent to me.


This ongoing talking about tracklimits is just kinda worthless tbh.
We're saying we don't understand the steward decision and want explanations to better understand this decision. I don't think that trying to understand the rules and their application is worthless.
 

King-kodiak

AOR Head Commentator
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It's not about discussing to allow cheating (corner cutting), but discussing about the proper penalty.
You are not fired from the school if you cheat once in a test at school right ? But maybe if you cheat plenty of time, you'll get fired? The punishment depends on the gravity/occurrences of the cheats.
So yeah, that's why we can discuss on the time gained compared to the penalty.
What I don't understand is : I already saw enquiries where someone got a 5sec penalty for a little cut by the game, and stewards reduced it to 1 or 2 sec, even though the driver didn't lift.
Here, @Adalexis lost 4 sec total for the little cut, and stewards decided not to reduce the penalty. This seems quite inconsistent to me.



We're saying we don't understand the steward decision and want explanations to better understand this decision. I don't think that trying to understand the rules and their application is worthless.
Each time we get a case of reducing an in-game penalty, each one is looked at purely on the evidence given. If we feel that the driver has lifted off sufficiently, it is adjusted to what we agree is fair. Quite a few times, these penalties are adjusted but not every time. Again, I remind you that it is the stewards discretion, AND it has to be by majority vote. It is rare that a case gets closed with everyone agreeing on it, but if a majority votes to keep or adjust a penalty, that is what we do. We are human, we make mistakes too, but we try our best to remain consistent. I understand you might disagree with that, but we are not trying to ruin anyone's race here. We are trying to make sure the rul3s are kept
 

Nagrom

Premium Member
Premium Member
Feb 26, 2018
512
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@King-kodiak Sure I understand and I agree.
I just felt some clarification was needed, because we didn't understand the decision.

As you said you are humans, and by giving some feedback we may enhance rules and steward decisions.

For example, last season some people were giving the place back one lap after the incident. It created some confusion because the drivers still got penalties for "failing to wait". We pointed that the rules/decision were not clear, and the regulation was updated for this year ^^
 
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Adalexis

Formula 4 1st Driver
Feb 3, 2018
176
128
Yes, we only want to know and understand clearly rules.
I'm a bit sad, because i know well, in another track, my lift could clear that warning at all. ( even 1/2 of my lift i think )
But, said that, i want only to know exactly the amount of time intended good by stewarts.
Is 2 seconds lift no good for 1 tenth slightly cut, that's ok, but tell me the right amount of time to lose, without any "human" discretion.
That's why i tagged in first posts coordinators ( i don't know who is a stewart or not )
You are @King-kodiak i suppose? ( i suppose u are a bear too ?) And even a super commentator
 

King-kodiak

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I can do my best to explain the outcome of the enquiries if you like, but I can't spend ages explaining all of them.

There is no set amount of time you need to back off to cancel the penalty. It's always safer to back off until the in game penalty disappears.