Rule change suggestion for next season | ApexOnlineRacing.com

Rule change suggestion for next season


Kez

iRacing Coordinator
Staff member
iRacing Coordinator
Jan 13, 2014
2,253
1,743
I think it would be more fun if that hour practise session would count as a quali.
Yes, maybe there would be pole positions with drafting, but it would just make the race more interesting if the faster drivers are behind.
If anything, that's going to make the grid order the same every week if each driver is getting a full hour to post a time. The cream will always rise to the top and eventually everyone would resort to drafting if it meant getting up the grid, like we had in the Pro Mazda. Having 2/3 timed laps only presents a risk and a pressure situation that we wanted to create.

I personally think we should just bin the reverse grid element completely. There's too much luck involved in the opening stages. I've done 6 reverse grid races now and been taken out of 3 of them on lap 1 (there was one more which I'm not counting because it was my own fault lol and it wasn't on lap 1 either). I don't care much for the Championship standings this season but if I was aiming for something I would be feeling pretty hard done by by the amount of points I've lost in incidents totally out of my control. I certainly feel for drivers like Jeroen who have been hit far too many times in the early stages of these sprint races and that's having an impact on their season.

I would at the very least suggest a rolling start for the sprints if the reverses have to stay, because the biggest issues are obviously people not making the right decisions in crowded situations.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mitti87

Jarnoh

Formula 3 Test Driver
May 13, 2015
195
95
Removing it or as Christian Koch said, deleting it completely will make participating a lot less intersesting for a lot of people. Seen the crashes in the sprint races, it sounds kinda harsh, but it are driver errors and those should be penalized.

If i watch those incidents.....easily but very easily they could be avoided. In almost every major crash at the start of a sprint race it is caused by people having no patience at all and try to win that position in the first lap whatever it takes, why not wait for the right moment ?

Not on behalf of myself but seen the battling i had in the sprint race in montreal, that is how it should be. Very fair and very clean. Involving these battles where with Jouni, Gunar, Tye, Vittorio and a few more. Seen on how @lokitekki overtakes me, he waited for almost a full lap to wait for the right moment which i highly respect and some people could sometimes take a look at how he does that and how it should be (only talking about this race). He did not try to force the overtake on all costs in the first oppurtunity, instead he back out and waits for a better run on me. The majority of crashes should never ever happen and the reverse grid could show a lot racecraft from the guys behind. Besides, if there are no penalties to the drivers who cause a crash, they will not back out and think again in the next race.

Just hoping to see the same format in the next season, this way it keeps fun and interesting for the back half of the field, if not, we could just start to do 2 splits of 15.......which would not make the show any better. If the racing is clean by the drivers, the reverse grid can and should make a fantastic race as seen in the Montreal Sprintrace, which was a real show and a great fun to drive with trusting the other drivers which i battled with to give room when needed. Racing out of the books with a big thanks for the blast i had with the drivers named above. (might have missed a few)
 

Stevie

Former Super Mod
Premium Member
Aug 26, 2014
14,077
8,619
I'd be gutted if the reverse grid was reduced - or worse, removed - especially to a pitiful number like 12. Doing something like that basically alienates two thirds of the grid. You may as well cap the grid to a certain speed/iRating, because only X number of drivers will be competitive and they'll be participating in a league not designed for them.

The idea was to mix the grid up, and give others a chance at a podium, or a good result. What's the point in reversing the top 12? You'll have the exact same guys up there and there's little to no difference for those further down, it's basically the race part 2, as opposed to a sprint race. They just carry on where they left off. You may as well just go back to one long race.

There's no denying there have been a few accidents caused at the start of races this season. But the majority have simply been a genuine mistake by one driver that has caused problems behind, Watkins/Donington for example, both caused by fast drivers simply dropping the car on cold tyres.

There are a few of the slower drivers who are a tad too cautious. Lifting off on a straight for example is not a good idea, especially when you've got cars all around and behind you, expecting you to be flat.

Yes, it's slightly pot luck, but the people you're around are usually the ones you were racing in the first race anyway, they're the ones who are immediately around you on lap 1 in the sprint.

Removing the reverse grid because 3/4 drivers keep getting involved in incidents would be a waste of what is a great format when it works. Especially when those same guys are then over the moon when they get a good result in the sprint race or have a really fun race, and then say nothing.

Hugo's DNF'd the last three sprint races, yet before that, he's finished all but one, including winning one. He also finished 2nd in Brazil, 3 seconds off the lead after starting 33rd. So to say for him that "That's enough" or whatever he said after getting hit in Canada is out of place.

Jereon also, has only failed to score three times in the sprint races. But equally has amassed 3 podiums from them.

It's slightly irritating because there are some drivers being involved in 1/2 incidents and complaining, but it took Phil until Round 6 to even finish a sprint race, and even in that he had damage. Where are his complaints?

Everyone has been caught at one stage or another, a couple, I admit are getting a few more DNF's than others, but to scrap it would be throwing a great idea for the majority out the window because a few have got wound up about it.

On a slightly different note, I certainly think ideally it would be a better situation where you didn't have somebody not trying to overtake somebody. Canada for example, however, in Chris' defence, Vic was driving far slower than he could manage, and at one point was lifting off on a straight so that Chris would pass him. That's just unsportsmanlike. Had Vic been pushing, and then Chris had caught him slowly and then not passed him then yeah, I'd argue the same for Chris. But when most of the field are running 35's, and Vic was pushing 39's at some points, it's hard to say that Chris was in the wrong for not passing him.

Sprint races collision are caused by people not being aware enough/being too aggressive/too cautious and that applies up and down the grid, there's no "It's the slow guys fault/it's the fast guys fault".



I'm pretty aware, and I think I balance aggression to make up places/being cautious quite well on lap 1... and the only lap 1 incident I've been involved in was in Okayama... in the feature race, which had absolutely nothing to do with the reverse grid, that was one driver being a melon and hitting another, spinning him around and leaving me with nowhere to go and then getting piled into by people behind who weren't paying enough attention.
 

Christian Koch

AOR iRacing 2-time Formula Renault 2.0 Champion
Apr 5, 2016
190
342
when talking about a "Chris" please add the surname or first letter :)

@StevieSQ that's a valid point, of course.
What i proposed is just a possibility to reduce those crashes in race 2; Personally, i do like the actual format very much and wouldn't change it as well; But it seems some guys here are not satisfied with it and search for changes.


If iRacing could only give us the possibility to add weight i'd suggest a weight gain in the sprint race for top 20 in some sort of order; Thats the only way i see to reduce those big crashes in the sprint at this point.
Another way could be to speak out harsh penalties, but thats not something i like and adds a lot of "burocracy"...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stevie

Hoff

FR2.0 S4 Pre-Season Sprint Race Winner
Premium Member
Jan 29, 2014
673
623
Tough or nothing?

Cause an incident in the Sprint that is deemed your fault and you are excluded or sent to the back of the grid in the following weeks spront race?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Gunar Nijenhuis

Rin Hato

AOR Space Race Champion
Oct 17, 2016
1,118
984
The sprint race is something I look forward to because if I get it right I can do pretty well and have fun. I enjoy the challenge it adds and if it wasn't there I'd be just sitting at the back watching everyone else get the glory, and really that's not enjoyable. I may be slow but I deserve the chance to show my racecraft too, fight hard for good positions that I otherwise wouldn't be in, and everyone else deserves the same.

I've DNF'd one sprint that was my own fault, and three of my four points finishes were from having a good sprint race. Like in Sebring, I started in about 23rd or something, and at the end of lap 1 I was 11th because I kept it on the track, staying aware of what was happening around me and giving people room to breathe. Luck plays its part as always, but if you race right you'll come out clean.
 

McPhilen

iRacing Coordinator
Staff member
iRacing Coordinator
Jan 16, 2014
3,389
2,414
Tough or nothing?

Cause an incident in the Sprint that is deemed your fault and you are excluded or sent to the back of the grid in the following weeks spront race?
This is genuinely something I also thought of.
 

Kez

iRacing Coordinator
Staff member
iRacing Coordinator
Jan 13, 2014
2,253
1,743
Like in Sebring, I started in about 23rd or something, and at the end of lap 1 I was 11th because I kept it on the track, staying aware of what was happening around me and giving people room to breathe. Luck plays its part as always, but if you race right you'll come out clean.
I felt I raced right in the opening corners here and gave appropriate space. Please advise me how I could have rightfully avoided this? It's not possible lol

Well let's look at the problem and the potential solutions:
Problem: Incidents in the opening stages, particularly lap 1. In my view these are mainly caused by the obvious speed differences in the inverted section of the starting grid, coupled with the lack of space and time drivers have to make a decision in.

Possible Solutions:
- Rolling start. The more I think about this, the more I feel this is a viable solution to attempt to address the issues at the start. The field, in theory, should be heading towards turn 1 more spaced out and with more racing room.
- 1 free repair available to all drivers. There is no mandatory stop in the sprint, therefore drivers will lose time coming in to make a stop, but it keeps them in the race (if they can make it - which presents a dangerous precedent of drivers attempting to drive around with a very broken car). I don't quite like this as it feels too 'artificial' but it grants those who felt unjustified a second chance.
- Limit the number of drivers reversed i.e. top 12/15. Apparently controversial from what I'm seeing above and may not necessarily resolve the problems anyway, as these accidents aren't being attributed to one particular 'group' (skill-wise) of drivers.
- Harsher penalties in an attempt to clamp down on driver etiquette. However, the problem is it's not as if it's the same guy each week causing the issue. Therefore being extremely harsh on penalties is not the right solution IMO. And to offer differing penalties depending on if it's a feature/sprint race would be inconsistent of the stewards.
- Do nothing. The post-race entertainment is fun (providing you didn't get caught up in anything) and it's much easier to win a race when an incident splits the field in half by lap 1 :cool::cool::cool:
- Change the points system. The first one to crash gets maximum points, following by 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on.
- 2 race ban for Martinsen for every accident that occurs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alehud42

Jarnoh

Formula 3 Test Driver
May 13, 2015
195
95
Tough or nothing?

Cause an incident in the Sprint that is deemed your fault and you are excluded or sent to the back of the grid in the following weeks spront race?
Don't know if that is the right penalty but i totally agree with your thoughts here. Drivers should be penalized when they cause an accident by driver error. This was it might come to sense that they wont do it again next time and be more aware (not offending anyone but in real life it's not different, it's part of racing).

Another topic: if right, like Kez said, people know when they have a slower driver than them in front of them so please take this into an account during the first lap and/or corner during the sprint race. Have given up places many times just by taking in account that the driver in front of me will brake early, be aware lads, thats all there is to it with these incidents. Not that hard :)
 

Lorrentz

Premium Member
Premium Member
Jan 13, 2014
3,159
1,700
Its a good thing to see The discussion is alive :)
First of all just to clarify myself

A. I dont want to ban out the "backmarkers" I still think its freaking brilliant to have a reverse grid from last man on the lead lap.
B. I dont want to blame @Ycoms or @VICSALT for their driver behaviour in the feature to try and secure a pole..fair play to both as the rules allow this as it is now.

But to outrule that behaviour i still think it would be good to make a fixed reverse grid number. We could even set it to top 20 (or last car on the lead lap) so there is still a battle needed to secure the pole...(maybe we can use the results from this season as a measurement to see what would be the average number on the lead lap to set it right) lets say average reverse grid is 22 then i think 20 would be a good number so still 2 people need to fight to get 20th spot for reverse pole..

Other suggestion from kerry to minimalize the incidents i do like the idea of a rolling start.

maybe a rolling start helps to get the field a little bit more spread out...

The free repair is a good thing maybe...i had a bend fw in montreal and it cost me 10 seconds in pit repair..if that was fixed instantly i could have gained a couple more positions and would have scored a top 10 still now i was 44 seconds behind @Ycoms after my stop and finished on 36 seconds but that would have been a bit better if the pitstop didnt take that long.
 

Jarnoh

Formula 3 Test Driver
May 13, 2015
195
95
Its a good thing to see The discussion is alive :)
First of all just to clarify myself

A. I dont want to ban out the "backmarkers" I still think its freaking brilliant to have a reverse grid from last man on the lead lap.
B. I dont want to blame @Ycoms or @VICSALT for their driver behaviour in the feature to try and secure a pole..fair play to both as the rules allow this as it is now.

But to outrule that behaviour i still think it would be good to make a fixed reverse grid number. We could even set it to top 20 (or last car on the lead lap) so there is still a battle needed to secure the pole...(maybe we can use the results from this season as a measurement to see what would be the average number on the lead lap to set it right) lets say average reverse grid is 22 then i think 20 would be a good number so still 2 people need to fight to get 20th spot for reverse pole..

Other suggestion from kerry to minimalize the incidents i do like the idea of a rolling start.

maybe a rolling start helps to get the field a little bit more spread out...

The free repair is a good thing maybe...i had a bend fw in montreal and it cost me 10 seconds in pit repair..if that was fixed instantly i could have gained a couple more positions and would have scored a top 10 still now i was 44 seconds behind @Ycoms after my stop and finished on 36 seconds but that would have been a bit better if the pitstop didnt take that long.
Agree on the fix nr for reversed grid, lets say 20. Way better than cutting it to top 12 or that kind of weird stuff.

Top 20 score points so they could be reversed and it keeps the fighting alive at the back. Last point scorer on pole makes sense to me.
 

Rin Hato

AOR Space Race Champion
Oct 17, 2016
1,118
984
I like the idea of top 20 reversed, yeah. Maybe this could be tried out in the off-season to see how it goes. Rolling start maybe not so much, in my experience it kinda leads to cars as close/if not closer as a standing start, because of some cars following closer, getting a jump on green/not reacting to green quickly. Official series have also put me off rolling starts because of people crashing on the freaking pace lap lol. This could also be tried out but I'm not sure it would go so well.

@Kez I wasn't saying that every incident can be avoided or its always someone's fault for not avoiding it, I've been in the wrong place at the wrong time on many occasions myself through no fault of my own. Sometimes we can just be really unlucky is all.
 

Erti147

AOR Admin
Staff member
AOR Admin
Jan 14, 2014
7,430
5,323
Limiting how many get reversed wouldn't really make much of a difference when you look at this seasons feature races and how many finished on lead lap

17
10
17
17
25
21
16
24
17
21

The two stand outs there are 10 for Donington National - a short track, and then Sebring on 25 - a long track - which clearly makes the difference on numbers
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rin Hato

Lorrentz

Premium Member
Premium Member
Jan 13, 2014
3,159
1,700
Limiting how many get reversed wouldn't really make much of a difference when you look at this seasons feature races and how many finished on lead lap

17
10
17
17
25
21
16
24
17
21

The two stand outs there are 10 for Donington National - a short track, and then Sebring on 25 - a long track - which clearly makes the difference on numbers
Looking at these numbers it would make perfect sense to limit it to top 15/16 to put up a show for sprint race pole :)

The limitation is not meant for less crashing only for the potential sandbagging behaviour to secure pole for sprint. Personally i would love to see a battle for sprintpole also and i think 15 is the magic number to put up that show.
 
Last edited:

Jarnoh

Formula 3 Test Driver
May 13, 2015
195
95
I would still set it to 20 (last scoring position) or no limit at all. But once again...sigh....awareness of drivers and racecraft solves it all. All accidents are simply driver errors one way or another. Penalties would make sense so people think about it more. Now it does not harm them besides a retirement or damage.
 

Bill "Soup" Zahn - GSRC

Formula 4 2nd Driver
Dec 13, 2016
114
206
Geez,

It is not my place to post so again forgive me, but, I will offer this as someone who has seen a lot of SimRaces with a lot of different formats.

The Fast Repair can often have unintended consequences. Yes it allows good drivers a second chance, but it also gives poor drivers a second chance to cause trouble.

Plus, if a driver thinks he/she has a free repair, he/she races differently than if he/she know one mistake ends his/her day.

From my experience in the booth, series with one fast repair have more crashes than no fast repair series.
 

Rin Hato

AOR Space Race Champion
Oct 17, 2016
1,118
984
Like Jarno said, either have it top 20 reversed or have no limit at all. Otherwise it's just going to be the same drivers in the same places each race which is pointless.
 

Hoff

FR2.0 S4 Pre-Season Sprint Race Winner
Premium Member
Jan 29, 2014
673
623
- Harsher penalties in an attempt to clamp down on driver etiquette. However, the problem is it's not as if it's the same guy each week causing the issue. Therefore being extremely harsh on penalties is not the right solution IMO. And to offer differing penalties depending on if it's a feature/sprint race would be inconsistent of the stewards
Why does it matter if it is the same people or not? Also, surely making sprint race punishments set would make the whole process easier? If someone is at fault they are sent to the back or excluded. Period.

For instance -

@Patrick Kessler, ended my race by getting too hot and maybe too aggressive. Maybe he wasn't expecting the driver in front to be so early on the brakes. My thinking is that he should be prepared for a slower driver to be just that and race accordingly until he gets passed. (this is just an example Patrick and not be digging you out :) )

In this situation he would be demoted to the back of the grid in the next race thus harming his potential result massively the following week. With this hanging over the heads of the drivers, this forces them to race appropriately.

I'm not generally an angry person but this is fucking stupid. I have raced in nearly 100 races in AOR across the iRacing and F1 platforms without being taken to the Stewards once. I don't race like a flannel, I fight for positions and I don't find it hard to not have a crash generally. Something needs to happen that punishes those who are causing it without taking away the opportunity to for us mid pack drivers to have a rare and massive result in the second race.
 

Jarnoh

Formula 3 Test Driver
May 13, 2015
195
95
Why does it matter if it is the same people or not? Also, surely making sprint race punishments set would make the whole process easier? If someone is at fault they are sent to the back or excluded. Period.

For instance -

@Patrick Kessler, ended my race by getting too hot and maybe too aggressive. Maybe he wasn't expecting the driver in front to be so early on the brakes. My thinking is that he should be prepared for a slower driver to be just that and race accordingly until he gets passed. (this is just an example Patrick and not be digging you out :) )

In this situation he would be demoted to the back of the grid in the next race thus harming his potential result massively the following week. With this hanging over the heads of the drivers, this forces them to race appropriately.

I'm not generally an angry person but this is ****ing stupid. I have raced in nearly 100 races in AOR across the iRacing and F1 platforms without being taken to the Stewards once. I don't race like a flannel, I fight for positions and I don't find it hard to not have a crash generally. Something needs to happen that punishes those who are causing it without taking away the opportunity to for us mid pack drivers to have a rare and massive result in the second race.
Took the words out of my mouth. It's irrelevant which driver makes the mistake. It should be judged per incident and if that is the same driver or not the same driver as last time, it does not really matter.